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C for Rust programmers (bd103.dev)
2026-10-08 Thu | 155 points by xyproto | original
[−]BitProgram · 2026-10-08 Thu 13:59 UTC · link
This article is written for Rust programmers learning C. As someone in the opposite position I know C and I've been curious about Rust I'd love to read the reverse. What's the hardest thing for a C programmer to unlearn when moving to Rust? Is it the borrow checker, or is that just the thing people talk about because it's the most visible?
[−]elendilm · 2026-10-10 Sat 16:57 UTC · link
In C, mostly you think about your code running on the machine with some thought dedicated to the compiler gymnastics involved during the compilation phase.

With Rust, you are front loaded with a myriad of compiler gymnastics you need to think through.

But once you get comfortable enough, it becomes natural. You also have to get accustomed to writing code that is more verbose than C which might look ugly at first but later you start to accommodate it as the necessary cost for the utility you are handed in return by the compiler.

For example, multiple variables in Rust doesn't necessarily mean multiple memory allocated variables at runtime like in C. The rust compiler will usually keep track of and ensure multiple variables (non Copy types such as String with Move semantics) map to one memory allocated variable at runtime (in normal single threaded use cases under normal circumstances without using RC, ARC, etc.). Eg: let a = String::from("hello"); let b = a; ... Note: The example is for illustration purposes only and not always true. In summary source code variables are abstractions and may not belong to distinct runtime memory location. Yes it is true even for C. But Rust's ownership model makes that distinction aggressively visible.

[−]dwattttt · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:24 UTC · link
I'll offer a thought, which amounts to rephrasing "front loaded with a myriad of compiler gymnastics you need to think through." from sibling.

There's a _lot_ of utility in things that aren't represented by a literal difference in the compiled code. It's not unusual to make a type in Rust that's just a single field; you're not making a struct to gather related data together, you're giving it a different name because the same data means something different.

It's a little like the difference between a uintptr_t and a uint16_t*. They're represented the same in the machine, the difference only exists in the source language.

Rust derives a lot of value from things that only mean something at compile time. I think you'd "unlearn" what C (commonly) teaches when you don't find a C struct with one member "weird".

[−]_dain_ · 2026-10-10 Sat 12:11 UTC · link
>The very first systems programming language I ever learned was Rust. This is uncommon compared to many other programmers; you're more likely to find someone who learned C or C++ first before coming to Rust.

It's becoming increasingly common. Rust is my first systems programming language too. I tried to learn C a few years ago but I found it too austere and prickly, which put me off.

[−]ReDress · 2026-10-10 Sat 12:15 UTC · link
Probably because C and C++ are mostly used in system and desktop development.

Rust is taking steps or has been taking steps in this direction too.

It's not surprising that a lot of experienced systems and desktop development engineers looking to getting their hands on the newest tool already have experience or at least familiarity with C and C++.

[−]assimpleaspossi · 2026-10-10 Sat 12:59 UTC · link
I was going to write that I found this odd. The kid that cuts my grass is going for a degree in CS and told me just yesterday that, in his second year, Java is the language he uses with a little Python. That C was such a struggle and he won't touch it.

For someone getting a CS degree, that just seems so, so odd. Along with that, he's been studying edge detection in images. In his second year. Not to run off topic but, again, I find that so, so odd.

[−]le-mark · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:24 UTC · link
When I was in college at a large Midwest university in 2002 intro cs classes were taught in C. Business majors were required to take cs 101 taught in C. We had a project that required implementing linked lists, oh how the business majors suffered! We all did actually but at least the cs majors could use the knowledge!
[−]randomNumber7 · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:17 UTC · link
Stuff like this was often done to enforce a minimum IQ.

Very reasonable imo as universitys educated people that get positions with responsibilitys.

[−]creata · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:56 UTC · link
That's interesting - to me C is delightfully austere. Most other languages, even much younger languages like Rust, spiral in complexity as they mature. But C hasn't grown much more complex since C99. How many other (mainstream) languages can say that?
[−]ReDress · 2026-10-10 Sat 12:12 UTC · link
I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a wild guess.

That boolean is actually mostly an extension of the integer system whereby we now have an integer type that stores only one bit.

Whereby the bit stored either results in a 'true' or 'false' value.

Anyways, I know booleans are useful in systems development when you have strict memory / storage constrains / bandwidth (networks).

Yeah, that works for me.

[−]bjackman · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:13 UTC · link
'bool' is still at least 1 byte in C. If you want to store one Boolean per bit you have to manually implement a bitmap.
[−]tyromaniac · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:20 UTC · link
Or pull out the C++ and use std::vector<bool>,... But you should probably never do that
[−]randomNumber7 · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:31 UTC · link
I heard the C++ guys regret defining vector<bool> using 1 bit per value.

Also for most code it will be premature optimization to worry about that.

[−]KerrAvon · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:47 UTC · link
From what I can tell in a cursory web search, that regret is more about issues with C++ being unable to abstract that field vs bit divergence properly, not about the concept of having the specialization be bit-based, which is sound.
[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:41 UTC · link
I think your description is technically accurate, but maybe this phrases it better:

std::vector<bool> is a perfectly nice growable bit array type, and if the exact same code were in the C++ standard library named std::growable_bit_array nobody would be annoyed about this type, some people would use it, others would ignore it, nobody would write epic rants about it or name it the singe worst thing about C++.

The problem is that C++ popularized generics, and std::vector<T> is a generic growable array type, you ask for a std::vector<Goose> you get a growable array of your custom Goose type, great idea, very popular these days -- yet std::vector<bool> is not a generic growable array of bool, it's this other thing instead that's similar but not quite similar enough to be a drop-in replacement.

In C++ there is no way for the specialization to be bit-based without it being apparent that you are not in fact getting a growable array of the bool type.

[−]codys · 2026-10-11 Sun 03:39 UTC · link
No, that's not really an accurate rephrasing. Your comment indicates the problem is that it was exposed as a specialization, KerrAvon is saying the problem was instead that the specialization wasn't effectively abstracted (hidden) behind the API of vector (ie: implication is that ideally we'd have a better API for vector that might require C++ language changes due to the nature of the problems with vector<bool>. not that we shouldn't have the specialization)
[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:33 UTC · link
> Your comment indicates the problem is that it was exposed as a specialization

Because that is the problem? That's what C++ programmmers are unhappy about.

> ideally we'd have a better API for vector that might require C++ language changes

Ideally after almost thirty years "maybe we could re-design the whole programming language to paper over this bug?" would be such an obviously bad idea that I wouldn't see it in a response.

[−]viega · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:51 UTC · link
A bool does automatically cast to an unsized bit slice.

Meaning, if you have a struct and you want to bit-pack your booleans, you can declare each one as, say, uint8_t some_bool : 1;

You may then do `x.some_bool = true;` etc.

It's a small nicety to avoid bitwise operators, anyway.

[−]bjackman · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:33 UTC · link
I do tend to think people under use bitfields.

I suspect this is because they are usually introduced like "here are bitfields, but DO NOT USE THEM for anything that might become ABI because their order is implementation defined". I think that causes people to mentally file it under <sketchy language features to avoid> when actually there are many contexts where the ABI risk is not real.

[−]cogman10 · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:25 UTC · link
The way C handles (prior to C23) booleans is pretty close to how you'd handle booleans in assembly.

CPUs don't have types, everything is integers or floats. You do your work on registers which have fixed sizes. CPUs have built in instructions for "is this register not zero" which leaks into C. 1 is true in C, but so is 2.

Also, single bits are rarely used for booleans because it requires more CPU power to extract a single bit. Everything is byte aligned at a minimum.

When doing something like network code, if you want to store a bunch of booleans you are typically going to either pack them into a byte, or you'll burn the extra bits and send a single byte for the boolean value. Typically this was flags and masks.

[−]xhroot · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:47 UTC · link
> single bits are rarely used for booleans

SQL Server still has no boolean type and groups bits in the same row into a byte if possible.

[−]quikoa · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:32 UTC · link
> Also, single bits are rarely used for booleans because it requires more CPU power to extract a single bit.

Not necessarily, on modern CPUs memory access is often the bottleneck. If you have many bits storing these in a bitarray can be quite beneficial for performance.

[−]streganil · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:41 UTC · link
I feel this comment misses some important context; in assembler, you might return a boolean value from a function in a register, but you also might just set a flag (which is much more similar to the "one bit value"). A flag register is very much a set of booleans, not an integer.

> single bits are rarely used for booleans because it requires more CPU power to extract a single bit

I don't believe this to be true; (on x86) `cmp X, 0` is exactly the same amount of operations as `test X, pow2`. One of them is a `sub` and one of them is an `and`. I believe this is how it works on all important CPU architectures of today back to the early microcomputers (although I don't know how the minicomputers handle this, so it's possible that booleans being integers makes more sense on a PDP-11 or a honeywell).

[−]uecker · 2026-10-10 Sat 12:25 UTC · link
Any tutorial for C should explain compiler warnings and other tools that help make code safer. In C, you do not rely on the language specification but on tooling. Especially for Rust programmers, this needs to be explained more explicitly. And of course, you can build abstractions using types in C. So a tutorial should also focus on that, and perhaps not start with a low-level string reversal function.
[−]kingforaday · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:11 UTC · link
I'm with you. Since the post already shows Clang catching the array-decay bug, the author could even just add a “always build with -Wall -Wextra -fsanitize=address,undefined” note and some explanation of course.
[−]rramadass · 2026-10-11 Sun 02:43 UTC · link
[−]bjackman · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:15 UTC · link
> This is not a substitute for a proper C tutorial
[−]swinglock · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:31 UTC · link
Absolutely. Turn the warnings into errors too, build and test with sanitizers (ASAN, UBSAN, TSAN) when not measuring performance, and use static analysis beyond compiler warnings (Clang Tidy, Clang Static Analyzer).

Though the author doesn't look to be trying to write a great tutorial, rather prioritizing sharing what and how they learned something from their perspective.

[−]cohani · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:06 UTC · link
Maybe the author was given monetary support from the Rust Foundation, they have given money to people to write blog posts https://rustfoundation.org/media/introducing-our-newest-proj... . They love media instead of technical work.
[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:04 UTC · link
> Turn the warnings into errors too,

Please stop smashing all the nuance out of compiler diagnostics this way.

One of the biggest successes of Rust has been its great diagnostics and I can assure you that it would not help to smash my Clippy lint suggesting that what I wrote looks a lot like an implementation of the addition operator† into a fatal error like the one I get for forgetting to initialize a variable.

Rust even has a (begins empty) diagnostic category [named "expect"] for "This warning should be here" which will flag cases where a notable thing not only might happen here and if it does we can ignore that, but if it's no longer detected that is itself suspicious and should be diagnosed.

† Yes it does Clippy, and I considered implementing Add but I had a good reason not to, so here is a suppression annotation.

[−]jminnl · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:43 UTC · link
Asan!
[−]gerdesj · 2026-10-10 Sat 23:24 UTC · link
A Rust programmer, programming in C is a C programmer!

Tribalism is sooo ... sadly now.

Please don't.

[−]xtajv · 2026-10-11 Sun 07:58 UTC · link
If it's any consolation, I figured that the author was using "Rust programmer" as a shorthand way to say "I know Rust best and that tends to be my point of comparison when learning other programming languages. But there's no particular loyalty there, and it's not like Rust is the only language I know. It's just the systems language that I already tend to think in".
[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:43 UTC · link
It has always been like that in computing, starting on school playground about which 8 bit home computer each kid had.
[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:56 UTC · link
I don't see any tribalism here, the original article addressed Rust programmers looking into C (so not currently C programmers).
[−]deknos · 2026-10-11 Sun 06:54 UTC · link
build one. i would verify gladyly
[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:40 UTC · link
Now that is something I 100% agree with.

C got lint in 1979, and is incredible how much advocacy is still required for folks to use the tooling their compilers offer out of the box.

This problem isn't even C specific, other ecosystems suffer from similar adoption issues.

[−]_ph_ · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:01 UTC · link
Which, to be provocative, begs the question: why isn't this tooling part of the compiler, that is, why aren't the diagnostics always produced by default, or even considered errors?
[−]daymanstep · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:17 UTC · link
Changing defaults has a tendency to break people's workflows e.g. for scripts that expect a fixed format output.
[−]_ph_ · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:28 UTC · link
Sure, but looking at C's age, the language was changed significantly over time. With one of those changes, certain things could have been considered compile errors, not optional tooling.

Or if you turn your argument around: if people depend on workflows and automation (I do of course too), then this is a good reason to standardize the diagnostics and errors of the checking tools to the point where the workflows and automation can depend on them. Otherwise they will remain tools which are completely optional to run, or even worse, are not part of your normal work flow.

[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:54 UTC · link
Why "could have"? Compilers have a lot more warnings than the used to, and also defaults got more strict.
[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:26 UTC · link
Because of developer culture mostly.

In some circles having the compiler dictate the way, and only true way, is seen as straightjacket programming.

[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 11:24 UTC · link
The most push back we get against making the language or compiler stricter is not for this reason though, it is mostly that the maintenance burden for existing code is considered to high.

But this illustrates how absurd the discussion is nowadays. Incrementally making things stricter and fixing warnings along the way is one of the most cost efficient way to improve quality and safety. Rewriting the software one of the most expensive. So if the former is rejected because the burden is too high, then obviously the overall aim to make things safer can not be too important and the push for rewrites must partially be motivated by other interests.

[−]Someone · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:52 UTC · link
One reason is that there is no such thing as the compiler. C ‘always’ had many different implementations.

Requiring all of them to adopt common linting rules at the same time is infeasible.

Also, it’s not true that linting rules never become part of the compiler. For example, the original lint (https://wolfram.schneider.org/bsd/7thEdManVol2/lint/lint.pdf) states

“The type-checking rules also require that, in structure references, the left operand of the -> be a pointer to structure”

and mentions warnings on such statements as

  int i 1;
  i =- 1;
Modern C compilers also warn way more often about unreachable code, pointer incompatibilities, etc. than those from the 1970s
[−]bjackman · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:11 UTC · link
It's beautiful to see this perspective! The fact that we are at "whoa, C is fucked up compared to my expectations" instead of "look at Rust's fancy safety stuff" shows that as a field we've started lifting the baseline.

Nowadays I actually believe I'll likely see a world without memory corruption within my lifetime.

[−]kingforaday · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:18 UTC · link
It’s definitely great that memory safety is becoming more pervasive. Though I’ll believe “a world without memory corruption” right up until another <insert your relevant hacker hero name> comes along and finds a way through an unsafe block, an FFI boundary, or the hardware itself (Rowhammer says hi).
[−]bjackman · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:24 UTC · link
> Rowhammer says hi

Yeah I was thinking of prefixing my "memory corruption" with "software-bug induced"! I don't see a credible solution to Rowhammer. ("DDR[n+1] fixes it" - lol)

> an unsafe block, an FFI boundary

Honestly these feel solvable to me at this point! I think we'll see:

- unsafe code shrink as languages get more powerful

- amount of analysis we can apply to each unsafe line shoot up exponentially as AI gets cheaper

- amount of FFI we actually need shrink as it gets easier to just click "rewrite it in $lang" on the decision card when your coding agent says "I found a library for that but it's in a different language"

(Having said all of that, people seem to be adopting Zig for some bizarre reason... So maybe I'm naive to expect unsafe lines to shrink)

(But also, maybe AI gets so good and so cheap that we can just type "go fidn all the bugs andfi xthenm" into an LLM, between sips of a Piña Colada)

[−]smj-edison · 2026-10-10 Sat 16:07 UTC · link
I'm one of those people who's adopting Zig :) But I don't think it's best for every project. For context, I've used Rust before for probably two years writing a realtime audio synthesis engine, so I'm fairly familiar with Rust vs Zig for handling low level details.

The biggest reason I use Zig is it's a very explicit language. The creators made a very intentional decision to avoid too many "high level" designs. This doesn't mean there's no capabilities for abstraction (comptime is great for that), but when you see array indexing, you can think "ptr + index * size with bounds check". There's lots of other things like that where the language does exactly one thing, and that thing is a low level operation.

This is terrible when you want to create high level abstractions that hide details from the programmer, but it's what I need when doing realtime audio synthesis or what I'm doing now which is writing an interpreter. I know exactly what allocates, I know what calls IO and can block (both operations explicitly take in an allocator or IO parameter), no data structures have private fields so I can always poke around at the insides. I know what types of errors a function returns, and creating errors is cheap with Zig's error union design.

So I don't use Zig because I think it's the safer language, I know it has sharp edges because of the number of times I've caused a panic on a poisoned pointer or use-after-free. But because it gives me such a transparent view into what is happening I find it liberating.

[−]the__alchemist · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:11 UTC · link
My take too. (Aside from this being a well-written, clear article, that I think highlighted a fair selection of relevant points; especially the "always use uint8_t instead if int" part).

I don't see rust a "memory safe" language, or a niche one. I have complaints about it etc, but it's overall a fair baseline of reasonable decisions. When I look at C or other languages rust has learned from, I have more "Yikes, that's rough" takes. So... rust as the language of least "fucked up", to use your phrase? Ownership/safety are one part of the picture, but not what defines it for me.

[−]cohani · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:16 UTC · link
Focusing narrowly on memory safety is frequently a distraction that incompetent developers use to excuse their buggy code. "Sure, my Rust code might cause deaths and cause millions of dollars lost; and my code might be unsafe, insecure and incorrect; but at least my code is memory safe and easy to debug when I fuck it up!". And then it often turns out that Rust is not memory safe in practice. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49697392

The real value of Rust is likely pattern matching and tagged unions. Apart from modules/packages that are not a disaster, like Gabriel Dos Reis the saboteur's disaster with modules in C++.

[−]nilslindemann · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:47 UTC · link
Were you intentionally rude with your first sentence or just unaware?
[−]wannabe44 · 2026-10-10 Sat 16:55 UTC · link
Indeed! They shrug it off when you ask them about supply chain safety or compiler complexity. I opine that post 1.0 they wasted precious engineering time trying to placate nodejs webshits over building the best systems language.

    There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies.

        — C.A.R. Hoare, The 1980 ACM Turing Award Lecture
[−]aw1621107 · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:29 UTC · link
What would you have preferred the devs work on instead?
[−]slopinthebag · 2026-10-10 Sat 23:35 UTC · link
i suppose a supply chain that doesn't exist is pretty secure.
[−]aw1621107 · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:28 UTC · link
> And then it often turns out that Rust is not memory safe in practice. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49697392

For what it's worth, in that specific instance there's no memory safety issue since Rust is guaranteed to crash on stack overflow on Ubuntu (and probably other supported Linux distros)

[−]afdbcreid · 2026-10-10 Sat 23:55 UTC · link
For what it's worth, this is not only that specific instance. Rust might not be memory safe in theory, but when talking about "in practice" - there is profound evidence that Rust's memory safety works.
[−]slopinthebag · 2026-10-10 Sat 23:32 UTC · link
this argument is so stupid, yes rust doesn't prevent all bugs but eliminating a large proportion of them is very obviously a good thing.
[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:53 UTC · link
I would say there are two big misconceptions here, which this article (and your comment) unfortunately reinforces.

The first is that it is "C is fucked up" instead of the poor defaults of the C implementation your are using.

The second one is the idea that C all has to be fragile low-level pointer fiddling instead of much safer high-level code build around abstractions, which good C would usually have.

[−]bjackman · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:36 UTC · link
Sorry but no, this is totally wrong. There is no set of compiler flags or design practices that can fix the lack of lifetime analysis in C.

I do actually think that with modern C++ it's possible to get to a style of programming where memory unsafety is mostly a theoretical concern but not with C.

[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:38 UTC · link
It is true that you will not get full lifetime analysis with a C compiler, I do not think this defeats my point. (and you can get lifetime analysis with other tools, but we lack good tooling for this)

For me, memory safety is also mostly a theoretical concern in C. This is achieved by having proper abstractions instead of low-level pointer fiddling and by having a clear strategy for managing lifetimes.

[−]kvemkon · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:41 UTC · link
> the program should check for a null pointer and gracefully exit if one is found: ...

If malloc() fails, there is no need to exit the program completely with exit(), only return from the current function with an error.

[−]randomNumber7 · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:38 UTC · link
It is impractical to try to recover/continue your program in an out of memory situation for most programs.

So it is a good advice for beginners.

[−]layer8 · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:21 UTC · link
If the code is in a library (and I’d treat code as if being part of a library by default), then the library shouldn’t be deciding that.
[−]1718627440 · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:37 UTC · link
But in order to able to show proper diagnostics and error messages, you should still return all the way to the top.
[−]im3w1l · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:51 UTC · link
No one does this. The best you can hope for is that a rare few especially error prone allocations (perhaps they are huge, or user controlled) are handled. Someone might I suppose also wrap all malloc calls in a function that shows a dialog or error message and only then exits. But returning all the way to the top, yeah.. no..
[−]smj-edison · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:56 UTC · link
I think this is fair the majority of time, but I'd like to mention Zig, since Zig has a convention of all allocations being fallible and handled. It's a pain at first to handle error.OutOfMemory at each allocating site, but I feel like I'm much more conscious of where allocation can fail and how to gracefully handle it. I've also gotten a lot better at transactions since pretty much every operation has failure points now.

In fact I've written a whole interpreter that can recover from OOM by raising a recoverable exception to the user. It's really only because Zig made recovering idiomatic, and I'm not sure I could've done it in another language (maybe Rust but I'd have to rewrite large parts of stdlib to both return an error and take a custom allocator).

[−]steveklabnik · 2026-10-10 Sat 19:47 UTC · link
The Rust stdlib has added those functions that return errors, and the types are parameterized by the allocator trait. The trait is coming to stable in the next release!
[−]smj-edison · 2026-10-10 Sat 20:44 UTC · link
Oh that's exciting! I knew about the allocator work, but I hadn't heard about error reporting for failed allocations, or that it was about to be stabilized.
[−]steveklabnik · 2026-10-10 Sat 21:42 UTC · link
To be specific, I’m talking about try_ variants of functions that allocate and return Result.

I’m not sure when those are becoming stable, but Rust for Linux has been driving a bunch of this work, in my understanding, so that’s helped a lot.

[−]mappu · 2026-10-11 Sun 00:17 UTC · link
In userspace/application code this isn't giving you all the value you hope for - because of overcommit and fork/exec, you can OOM on simply modifying a variable (in a non-file-backed page).

What Zig does is great, but it is not actually comprehensively checking that all allocations are fallible and handled. That's not possible on Linux.

[−]smj-edison · 2026-10-11 Sun 02:06 UTC · link
Unless you use cgroups or turn off overcommit :) I'm also hoping to use the core interpreter on memory-limited devices like an ESP-32.
[−]eesmith · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:54 UTC · link
Agreed.

I think it's because the new_uninit_slice call Rust will trigger a panic? Or abort? With little-to-no chance for recovery? (I know little about Rust.)

If so, I can see why someone that someone coming from Rust might consider exit() to be the appropriate solution for C, even for library code which should never be in charge of deciding how a program should exit.

I think the essay could be improved by highlighting the different worldviews.

I'm also old enough that

    // Allocate enough room for the string and its null terminator.
    char* reversed = malloc(len + 1);
makes me nervous. Even for char -- I've never been on a system where sizeof(char) != 1 -- I want to see the sizeof included in the calculation, like:

    char* reversed = malloc((len + 1) * sizeof(*reversed))
so I don't have to think about sizeof(char) being special.

As long as I'm here, I'm a bit confused about the purpose of the "char* error_message" in the proposed Result. Why a char* vs a const char * or even better, an int with an error code? Who sees the message? Do we expect they know English, or will they be localized? Will the error message text be frozen forever, or might it change in the future?

[−]aw1621107 · 2026-10-10 Sat 19:13 UTC · link
> I've never been on a system where sizeof(char) != 1

And you never will, since sizeof(char) is guaranteed to always be 1.

I'm guessing you were thinking of CHAR_BIT != 8, but even then I'm not sure it would make a difference since malloc takes its argument size in bytes and a char more or less is a byte in C.

(Consider that char*s are also how you access the byte-level representation of objects in C. If chars were not the minimum addressable unit then that use wouldn't work)

[−]steveklabnik · 2026-10-10 Sat 19:42 UTC · link
(And CHAR_BIT is required to be 8 by POSIX, so even though the language and some exotic hardware will have it at non-8, it’s exceedingly rare at this point.)
[−]eesmith · 2026-10-10 Sat 19:52 UTC · link
The linked-to essay points out that char is only "at least 8 bits", and links to https://cppreference.com/c/language/arithmetic_types which confirms that point.

https://smd.hu/Data/Analog/DSP/SHARC/C&C++%20Compiler%20&%20... says the cc21k compiler for ADSP-21xxx DSP systems has char as 32 bits signed, and that the compiler handles ANSI/ISO standard C.

So I don't believe your statement "sizeof(char) is guaranteed to always be 1" is correct.

> chars are also how you access the byte-level representation of objects in C

Where does the spec say that a char can be used to address any point in an object?

There's all sorts of oddities like tagged architectures which the C spec handles which I know essentially nothing about, but which break common expectations about how C works. I believe this is one of them.

I believe the following is undefined behavior in C, even though your compiler may let you do it, at least sometimes, and on modern desktop hardware:

  int i = 12345;
  char *s = ((char *)&i) + 1;
  char c = *s;
I believe the following is the correct (or less incorrect) way to do it:

  char tmp[sizeof(int)];
  memcpy(tmp, &i, sizeof(int));
  char c = tmp[1];
[−]aw1621107 · 2026-10-10 Sat 22:01 UTC · link
> The linked-to essay points out that char is only "at least 8 bits", and links to https://cppreference.com/c/language/arithmetic_types which confirms that point.

Yes, but in C standardese a "byte" is not necessarily the 8 bits that it's normally thought to be these days. From C89 Section 2.2.4.2 Numerical Limits [-1]:

> maximum number of bits for smallest object that is not a bit-field (byte) CHAR_BIT 8

i.e., CHAR_BIT is the number of bits in a byte. C23 has a similar definition, and further defines CHAR_WIDTH that is defined to expand to the same value as CHAR_BIT.

> So I don't believe your statement "sizeof(char) is guaranteed to always be 1" is correct.

From C89 section 3.3.3.4 The sizeof operator [0]:

> When applied to an operand that has type char, unsigned char, or signed char, (or a qualified version thereof) the result is 1.

This wording remains basically identical through C23 [1].

> Where does the spec say that a char* can be used to address any point in an object?

From C89 section 3.3 Expressions:

> An object shall have its stored value accessed only by an lvalue that has one of the following types:

> <snip>

> * a character type.

This also remains the case up through C23.

I think you're thinking of the strict aliasing rule with your example, but character types are one of the exceptions to said rule so I think your example is actually fully defined. It'd be UB if you casted to an incompatible type like a float, I believe.

[-1]: https://port70.net/%7Ensz/c/c89/c89-draft.html#2.2.4.2

[0]: https://port70.net/%7Ensz/c/c89/c89-draft.html#3.3.3.4

[1]: https://port70.net/%7Ensz/c/c23/n3220.html#6.5.4.4

[2]: https://port70.net/%7Ensz/c/c89/c89-draft.html#3.3

[3]: https://port70.net/%7Ensz/c/c23/n3220.html#6.5.1

[−]eesmith · 2026-10-11 Sun 03:51 UTC · link
I .... okay, my mind is blown. It absolutely says that, and https://en.cppreference.com/cpp/language/types adds "this allows the extreme case in which bytes are sized 64 bits, all types (including char) are 64 bits wide, and sizeof returns 1 for every type."

So that scaling factor is placed into CHAR_BIT, and would be 64 on that DSP compiler.

> An object shall have its stored value accessed only by an lvalue that has one of the following types:

Yes, my confusion comes down to my confusion of what "byte" means in the C spec.

Thank you for your time in pointing this out.

[−]aw1621107 · 2026-10-11 Sun 05:35 UTC · link
Yeah, it's one of those things that is not exactly intuitive if you didn't already know about it. The menagerie of other byte-ish-sized types added in recent versions of C and C++ probably doesn't help either.

Bit of a (not so?) fun fact: char* being a universal alias can lead to some potentially unexpected slowdowns [0], especially if the char* bit is behind a typedef.

[0]: https://travisdowns.github.io/blog/2019/08/26/vector-inc.htm...

[−]steveklabnik · 2026-10-10 Sat 19:44 UTC · link
> I think it's because

It’s not any of that. It’s because of overcommit being the default for basically every Linux system. With that, malloc will never fail, and it’s the later access of that memory that will. In practice, you’ll virtually never see malloc actually return a failure, and so most software, no matter the language, is generally not robust to this condition.

[−]tcfhgj · 2026-10-11 Sun 01:15 UTC · link
recently noticed that iced (rust ui framework) crashes on oom - from the logs it seems to be aware and crash explicitly. I wish it would just reduce the fps or hang a bit instead of crashing, perhaps use exponential backoff
[−]eesmith · 2026-10-11 Sun 03:04 UTC · link
How is it then that my stock KUbuntu system won't let me allocate 50,000,000,000 bytes?

  $ uname -a
  Linux boxcar 7.0.0-31-generic #31~24.04.1-Ubuntu SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Mon Aug 10 09:38:02 UTC 2 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
  $ cat tmp.c
  #include <stdio.h>
  #include <stdlib.h>
  
  int main() {
  char *s = malloc(50000000000ULL);
    if (s == NULL) {
      printf("Boo, hoo!\n");
    } else {
      printf("Look at all that memory!\n");
    }
    return 0;
  }
  $ cc tmp.c
  $ ./a.out
  Boo, hoo!
As to the lack of robustness of most software, that's a fact. But, for example, Daniel Stenberg of curl fame is a developer of robust software who does not appreciate how Rust handles out-of-memory errors makes it impossible to implement libcurl in the way he expects a library to work. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFH2vZRTKrA&t=2080s from 4.5 years ago as an example.

To get back to the essay, I can easily understand why someone who has Rust as their first-and-only systems language, and therefore expects abort-when-out-of-memory, will not immediately consider how C allows a different approach to how to handle that condition, but instead will try to replicate Rust's behavior in C.

"I can program FORTRAN in any language." :)

[−]dwattttt · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:53 UTC · link
> How is it then that my stock KUbuntu system won't let me allocate 50,000,000,000 bytes?

I can't speak to the specific implementations, however servicing an allocation request has multiple fallible steps: reserve address space, then confirm/acquire/defer the physical memory backing the allocation.

My understanding is that overcommit allows deferring assigning physical memory to the allocation, however it could still fail to find a chunk of address space to service the allocation request.

[−]wahern · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:13 UTC · link
Not sure I agree with this pattern for strings, but if you're gonna multiply for an allocation like that and are concerned about consistent idioms, use calloc or [non-standard] mallocarray, which will check the multiplication for overflow.
[−]caaqil · 2026-10-10 Sat 13:59 UTC · link
> there are plenty of "Rust for C Programmers" articles on the internet, but little to no "C for Rust Programmers" articles out there.

Why would a Rust programmer learn C? Isn't that basically a regression?

[−]orbitaldesk · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:13 UTC · link
Not a regression. Most of the systems code you'll ever touch is still C, and knowing C makes Rust's unsafe blocks and FFI story way less mysterious. I learned C after Rust and it changed how I read Rust too: the ownership rules click differently once you've managed memory by hand and felt the bugs they prevent.
[−]cohani · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:26 UTC · link
It is easier to write a C compiler from scratch than a Rust compiler from scratch. No usage of LLVM or anything like it.

That also reflects in that many embedded systems offer C support and do not offer Rust support.

[−]glum64 · 2026-10-11 Sun 07:26 UTC · link
The first language is formative. It gets the programmer to think at a particular level of abstraction. If that level is wrong for the problem at hand, the programmer needs another language.

Write, say, a boot loader, for enlightement.

[−]phamilton · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:03 UTC · link
Re: arrays are pointers.

One of my favorite things to show just how bare this is in C is to show array access commutativity.

  char c = {1,2,3}

  c[1] == *(c + 1)
  
  *(c + 1) == *(1 + c)
  
  c[1] == 1[c]
C is wonderfully simple at times.
[−]mr_00ff00 · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:28 UTC · link
All fun and games with arrays being pointers, until you declare an array in a function and return it.
[−]jackling · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:36 UTC · link
Isn't this easily catchable with static analysis, -Werror -Wall? I've never had a practical problem with this.

Also arrays aren't pointers in C, they decay into pointers. You can see this since sizeof will work differently in the function that instantiates the array versus one that takes in the pointer as a parameter.

[−]Ygg2 · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:33 UTC · link
Isn't Lisp even more bare bones?

At end of day minimalism is a neat but not decisive feature. If minimalism was decisive we'd all be writing Brainfuck.

[−]brabel · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:43 UTC · link
Lisp minimalism is very different. It assumes a runtime with automatic memory management for example, even if the language concepts themselves are minimal, especially in Scheme, it has almost no syntax and just a few core facilities on top of which everything else is built, which are closely related to the Lambda calculus, kind of ignoring completely what real computers actually look like.

In C the minimalism comes from providing only the minimal set of things that are available in most (maybe all) architectures (the Von Neumann paradigm), like linear memory, a simple function calling convention, close mapping to Assembly operations etc. But C syntax is not very minimalist compared to Lisp , let alone Forth. The fact that C syntax became prevalent in the programming world seems to be mostly an accident to me, it’s not objectively better than those minimalist languages’ or Pascal’s, Prolog, ML families.

[−]Ygg2 · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:04 UTC · link
> In C the minimalism comes from providing only the minimal set of things that are available in most (maybe all) architectures

By that logic Brainfuck is even more minimal. Again. I'm saying minimalism isn't the goal. It's a good quality but not most important one.

[−]brabel · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:36 UTC · link
You just misinterpreted what I said. I was referring to a minimum common denominator of cpu architectures. Brainfuck has nothing to do with that.
[−]WalterBright · 2026-10-11 Sun 00:07 UTC · link
> providing only the minimal set of things that are available in most (maybe all) architectures

The rise of C in the 1980s induced CPU makers to design instructions that cater to C semantics.

[−]xtajv · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:17 UTC · link
That is because C already worked everywhere even before CPU makers agreed on things like making pointers and words the same size.

Edit: And by "worked everywhere" I mean C did the heavy lifting of being a programming language that was even a little bit portable across architectures.

[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:46 UTC · link
PL/I had more knobs for portability, but neither Multics, nor IBM Oses were available for free.
[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:42 UTC · link
I don't think this is really true. What instructions would this be?

In contrast, Intel introduced a lot of instruction for PASCAL, e.g. enter / leave etc. which are basically unused.

[−]rramadass · 2026-10-11 Sun 03:10 UTC · link
> In C the minimalism comes from providing only the minimal set of things that are available in most (maybe all) architectures (the Von Neumann paradigm), like linear memory, a simple function calling convention, close mapping to Assembly operations etc.

This is beautifully illustrated in the old classic The C Companion by Allen Holub which overviews a simple abstract demo architecture and code generated for it. This is a small book (in the vein of K&R C) but contains enough illuminating info. for a programmer.

[−]KerrAvon · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:58 UTC · link
I would add on top of brabel's post that C is surprisingly difficult to parse correctly (C++ notoriously so).

Zoom out a little: C is a lot like Unix: simple probably isn't the right word; `underengineered` comes to mind. Which leads to complexity, as you need to make things work in the real world. And so Unix syscalls being designed in the early 1970's for a PDP-11 don't really map to modern needs. And so every unanalyzed complex C app has memory leaks.

To be clear, I like C, I like C++, I like Objective-C, I like Swift; I'm comfortable in all of them. But, in 2026, I don't see why for native code everyone shouldn't be programming in Rust / Swift / other modern memory-safe flavor for any new production use. Zig if you want faster compile times, I guess.

[−]skydhash · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:36 UTC · link
> But, in 2026, I don't see why for native code everyone shouldn't be programming in Rust / Swift / other modern memory-safe flavor for any new production use. Zig if you want faster compile times, I guess.

Because C is very simple (unlike Rust) and works everywhere. Zig is not yet stable. Go and Swift are under the governance of tech companies.

The true appeal of C for me is the standard and how it applies only to the language. You can easily take a project from 2 decades ago and port it to a current platform. Lot of current ecosystem is way too fussy about tooling to do this.

[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-10 Sat 20:23 UTC · link
> Because C is very simple (unlike Rust) and works everywhere

That's definitely true. C is a "Worse is better" language and as such it's everywhere. You can knock together a halfway usable C for some crap hardware in a few weeks and then the hardware is saleable because there's a C implementation.

> You can easily take a project from 2 decades ago and port it to a current platform.

Much of the software I wrote two decades ago in C won't even build today. Good luck figuring out why, periodically I try to figure out which weird 2000s era Mac OS hacks don't like a 2026 Linux system and eventually I give up and write modern software instead.

In theory C written in 2006 definitely "just works" on a 2026 Linux machine but in practice real world C is broken and even though I (co)wrote it I don't know why. Also in practice the first serious Rust project I wrote in 2021 I just found it, checked out the oldest working version ("first rough working code" says the log) from git, cargo run, works as expected.

Maybe it's because the C was four times older, but I think it's because in the real world you don't end up writing that mythical portable C code too often.

[−]fastaguy88 · 2026-10-11 Sun 01:55 UTC · link
I have 'C' code that was written in 1985 that runs today, mostly after moving function parameters from inside the function to inside the argument list.

'C' seems to be a language that makes it easy to write incomprehensible statements, but it's not that hard (or it was not that hard) to write code that is trivial bring up to date. Perhaps it was easier for me because I started with Fortran.

[−]fithisux · 2026-10-11 Sun 05:16 UTC · link
Very common.
[−]msla · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:04 UTC · link
I will never understand why some people put C in quotes.

Do you also put Java in quotes? Rust?

[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:52 UTC · link
Only if it targeted UNIX in first place, or was only making use of standard library.

I am quite sure my MS-DOS C code is going to have some hard time being compiled on GCC 16.

[−]lelanthran · 2026-10-11 Sun 05:56 UTC · link
> Maybe it's because the C was four times older, but I think it's because in the real world you don't end up writing that mythical portable C code too often.

It's because C, over time, went from a bunch of almost compatible implementations, to a standard that differed a little from every existing implementation, to a standard that is updated every decade or so, which is then implemented by a bunch of different products, with enough ambiguity in the standard (UB) that there will be differences between compilers and versions of compilers.

Rust is a single implementation. Always has been.

It's a single product, so you code to the product. The product has no external forcing function, like a language standard, that produces changes every decade. When you write Rust, you aren't thinking "Wait, lets make sure this works on the Watcom compiler too".

If Rust code cannot compile 30 years later, that's a failure on the language, because the single implementation is in full control of compatibility. If C code cannot compile 30 years later, that's not a failure of the language, because the implementation in 30 years has had external pressure forcing changes.

People often forget that Rust is a product, C is a specification.

[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:00 UTC · link
> a standard that is updated every decade or so

In practice the cadence is exactly half that of WG21's breakneck C++ pace. Every six years. C11, C17, C23 so far and C2y is expected to land before the end of this decade.

But anyway, all I can do is report the observable fact. If you want to say it's because GCC 15 is a different product from GCC 4 whereas rustc 1.99 is the same product as rustc 1.49 then I guess you can re-phrase my position as "In C you will keep needing new products and that sucks" if you like.

[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:50 UTC · link
In theory, in practice many C developers only know "My C Compiler standard", and are usually surprised that some of their expectations aren't even part of ISO C PDF specification.

Then they get irritated that not all C compiler vendors have the same language extensions or implementation defined behaviours they got used to rely on.

[−]jstimpfle · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:34 UTC · link
True. In C, it's hard to know what's defined where and what one is even using unknowingly. The only help is to build on multiple platforms from early on, this will reduce the pain of porting to new platforms later.
[−]jstimpfle · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:03 UTC · link
It's _very_ easy to write C that is impossible to port to other platforms or other compilers. The reason is that more than for most other ecosystems, there are many different implementations with their own implementations and quirks.

It's also easy to write C that won't build on the system it was originally developed on, a few years down the line. But that is true for almost every other language ecosystem. I would say, C makes it _possible_ to write code in such a way that it works on many different platforms and compilers, and/or can continue to work in decades to come with relatively little maintenance.

The latter isn't true for most other ecosystems, because to get anything done in them, you need to rely more on that language and its ecosystem -- specific language features, specific libraries. C isn't a glue code language. It's very good at letting you create your own thing.

To do it well though, requires a lot of care and expertise.

[−]creata · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:22 UTC · link
> more than for most other ecosystems, there are many different implementations with their own implementations and quirks.

Is that the reason? I thought it was primarily because C stupidly* makes a ton of platform-specific things more convenient than the platform-independent equivalent - the width of integer types, locales, etc., all vary by platform, and it's easy to accidentally depend on them.

* Maybe it wasn't stupid at the time when C was developed, but it's a bad choice now.

[−]jstimpfle · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:31 UTC · link
Integer widths are a problem, but hardly the biggest headache (unless it's a decade old preexisting project that was never designed with portability in mind). Fixed with integer types like int32_t have existed for decades. Even Rust has usize which is machine dependent, and pointers as well have to be machine dependent of course.

Much bigger problem is understanding the scope of dependencies. Dependencies can go bad and you need to update. A dependency might not be available on some new platform so you might have to replace with something else on that platform. To make the software portable, good modularity is required. This is to a large extent an aspect of software architecture. Even Rust can't magically make this happen, if you depend on 300 crates that's probably not a great place to be in either if you want to be portable and maintainable.

There is probably a point that C's flat namespace is a major contributor to badly designed software, because people aren't aware of the dependencies they're mixing all the time. Also C encourages transitive includes, leaking implementation details to the user instead of just to the compiler. (But btw. I find C++ and Rust namespace to be unergonomic syntax-wise, and what's needed is not actually namespaces but control over visibility).

[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:08 UTC · link
It is "underengineered" perhaps if you believe it is the job of the language to prevent memory leaks (which Rust also doesn't). IMHO it is just fine - and in fact better - if the language is small and analysis is done by a separate tool.

I also do not see why the simplicity of C should lead to complexity. I have build complex systems in C. I did this using C++ in the past, but switched to C because I found out that all the complexity of C++ was a huge distraction and not something that helps me design better systems. C++ also came with a lot of claims that all the features are absolutely needed to build good abstractions and that this is not possible in C, something I found to be completely false. (And then, a lot of complex and still extremely reliable software I use daily is build in C. My practical experience completely contradicts the myth propagated nowadays by some that all C is inherently bad and unreliable . In my experience it is the exact opposite: The C software I use is in fact the most reliable.)

My view is that Linux and free software is still going strong, because it managed to largely keep out the unnecessary complexity out of the core infrastructure. With Rust and AI, I worry that now get a lot of overly complex infrastructure and that it will be hard to ever get this complexity under control again.

[−]jhgb · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:33 UTC · link
> But, in 2026, I don't see why for native code everyone shouldn't be programming in Rust / Swift / other modern memory-safe flavor for any new production use.

The lack of OpenMP for Rust etc. seems like the most obvious reason for "why use C instead of Rust in 2026" to me.

[−]pwdisswordfishq · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:03 UTC · link
I have known about this for quite some time, and the more I think about it, the more useless it seems. Sure, the underlying machine operation is just addition, which is indeed commutative, but at the type system level, the pointer and the offset have distinct roles. It just makes no sense to allow to commute them, just like it makes no sense to allow to commute arguments to, say, strchr, just because the compiler can figure it out by looking at the types. When was the last time you had a practical reason to write "offset + pointer" or "index[array]"?

In most languages, the indexing operator is not commutative. In Rust, pointer offseting is expressed as a function call or a method, also not commutative. I have never seen a single complaint about either. It's not something people want or care about, it's just a tedious detail.

[−]skydhash · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:29 UTC · link
> It's not something people want or care about, it's just a tedious detail.

It’s not something idiomatic, but indexing in C is syntactic sugar. Not sure why they allow it in the syntax, but forgetting that arrays are pointers and not special type is just asking for bugs.

[−]im3w1l · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:42 UTC · link
Arrays are not pointers in c. Though they are very similar and will implicitly convert, there are differences. The big and obvious difference is that declaring an array will allocate space for it. In a function, on the stack. In a struct, inline. They have different sizeof. I think there are also some other stuff I can't remember.
[−]ynik · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:08 UTC · link
In C there's only two operations you can do with arrays that do not decay to a pointer: `sizeof(array_var)` and `&array_var`. The latter produces a rarely-seen "pointer to array", i.e. a type like `int (*)[10]` (pointer-to-array syntax works like pointer-to-function syntax).
[−]uecker · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:39 UTC · link
Luckily I start to see such pointers used more often, because such pointers can be used for bounds checking because the size is preserved in the type.
[−]skydhash · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:25 UTC · link
> C is wonderfully simple at times.

Yesterday, I watch a quick video[0] where Matthew Butterick was comparing book sizes and their appeal. “The C Programming Language” was my second programming book (after one about JavaScript 1.x) and I still remember it fondly. Easy to start with (with CodeBlocks on Windows and gcc on Linux) and the concepts were nicely explained. The book were also very nice.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ryv6TwQvM

[−]creata · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:36 UTC · link
As fun as it is, 1[c] will be "marked obsolete" in C29 according to Wikipedia.
[−]avadodin · 2026-10-11 Sun 06:38 UTC · link
C11 is last C as far as I'm concerned.

I don't mind adding new features in committees but if they are going to remove compatibility, they should rename their language to nuC or CantbelieveitsnotRust(yet).

No offense intended to Rust which is a fine language.

[−]teo_zero · 2026-10-11 Sun 07:09 UTC · link
If C was not supposed to be changed to correct its past mistakes, we would still increment with a=+1 instead of a+=1, or we would use something called nunununuC.

> C11 is last C as far as I'm concerned.

Are you sure? I think C23 brought so many enhancements it's a pity to ignore it.

[−]xtajv · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:21 UTC · link
> we would use something called nunununuC

"C++", perhaps? :)

[−]xtajv · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:13 UTC · link
I'm with you there.

> if they are going to remove compatibility

C as a language has one job, and it is to not do this.

[−]pjmlp · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:44 UTC · link
So you still code in K&R C, I reckon.
[−]jmclnx · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:07 UTC · link
Really just another use Rust instead of c article.
[−]blourvim · 2026-10-10 Sat 14:15 UTC · link
It reads really well
[−]rramadass · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:03 UTC · link
Read the following if you want to be a C Programmer;

Fluent C: Principles, Practices and Patterns by Christopher Preschern - https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/fluent-c/9781492097273/

[−]pwdisswordfishq · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:10 UTC · link
isize and usize seem to be more like intptr_t and uintptr_t. To be fair, for a long time it was not very well-defined to which C type they correspond to; I think that was cleared up only recently.

It's also a shame the article uses the self-delusional C++ style of pointer declarators.

Otherwise pretty okay.

[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-10 Sat 16:07 UTC · link
They're not great analogs to any of the C types because C and C++ have a different relationship to pointers than Rust does but particularly they are not intptr_t / uintptr_t because those claim that we can intra-convert between these types and pointers.

On a typical PC that doesn't seem like a problem, and it will (at least kinda) work which might give you the false impression it's required to work, which it very much is not in Rust. On CHERI it's obvious why this can't work. CHERI's pointers are 128-bit. Rust does have 128-bit integers, but Rust's isize and usize on CHERI will be 64 bits. Because only half of CHERI's pointer bits are address bits, and Rust told you that isize and usize were big enough for the address not the whole pointer.

Many clever pointer tricks only want to fiddle with the address. For example hiding bit flags in an aligned pointer works, as does hiding the entire value inline in today's enormous pointers (64 bits! Luxury) and using a single bit to mark "not a real pointer". In Rust we do these with the actual raw pointer types, they have methods like any other type, but in C or C++ you need to convert to a pointer-sized integer and then do tricks with the integer or you will write UB.

[−]afdbcreid · 2026-10-11 Sun 00:01 UTC · link
That's not true. `usize` and `isize` are explicitly specified to roundtrip a pointer address. You are correct that this would imply they need to be 128-bit in CHERI which will be a major perf hit, and this is actually blocking Rust support on CHERI, and the solution might be to change the guarantees (but it is hard because code in the wild relies on it), but it is the current guarantee.
[−]tialaramex · 2026-10-11 Sun 09:14 UTC · link
I think what's going on is that you've half understood the situation with CHERI as of a few years ago and now you're trying to explain your half-understanding to me confidently as if you're correcting me.

As I said, these types are the same width as an address on the target but a CHERI pointer isn't just an address, that's why they are so wide.

Maybe start here: https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/ptr/index.html#strict-provenan...

[−]layer8 · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:16 UTC · link
> Woah, iterating over pointers instead of indexes! […] However, I'm not sure how good an idea that is.

I’d recommend anyone (including the author) wanting to understand C to read K&R’s “The C Programming Language”, which among other things will illustrate how iterating over pointers is idiomatic in C (though not quite in the way the author’s example does it).

[−]Joel_Mckay · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:57 UTC · link
GLib simple C data structures:

https://docs.gtk.org/glib/data-structures.html#doubly-linked...

GSL GNU Scientific Library for C:

https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/doc/html/intro.html

In general, no one should be custom building most basic structures in C these days. =3

[−]pwdisswordfishq · 2026-10-10 Sat 17:24 UTC · link
Yes. And this is what C++ iterators evolved from.
[−]elendilm · 2026-10-10 Sat 15:25 UTC · link
My own journey has been quite different.

When I was building my kernel in my late teens, I first wrote the bootloader by hand on paper in assembly language. I then referenced the x86 manual for the instruction set and converted my assembly code into the equivalent hexadecimal machine code values of the x86 machine instructions, which I also wrote by hand on paper. Then I used a hex editor on the desktop to manually write the hex values into a file and used it as the bootloader i.e as the first 512 bytes.

The whole exercise gave me a sense of hard grounded zero magic, raw, unfiltered experience. This is an experience that is hard to replicate in any other way. I deliberately did that so as to peel away as much magic/abstraction layers as I possibly can.

Later on when I started using C, I never had to learn C but merely just had to reference the equivalents of the assembly language. Like how the primitive "if" doesn't exist in the hardware but is a composition of cmp and jmp instructions. Seen this way, C becomes a glorified portable syntactic sugar over assembly language.

Then higher up the ladder to C++ for object oriented problem solving while retaining the spirit of functional programming. Rust was a breath of fresh air, where correctness across a myriad of use cases was a first class primitive.

Each abstraction layer can thus be evaluated for its utility in problem solving while its underlying mechanics remain understandable down to the hardware level.

More recently, our own arcc compiler extends correctness to our architecture and not just the types.

So if you are young and have time to spare, I suggest a little bit of Assembly => C => C++ => Rust.

This essentially makes you immune to hype train bullshit.

[−]bennettnate5 · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:25 UTC · link
Some fun quirks I never learned until years after first getting into C:

- zero-initialization via `= {0};` will still leave padding and any data not covered by the smallest elements of unions uninitialized, so serializing data structures zeroed via that method is unsafe

- A pointer that increments any more than 1 past the end of a valid memory region (e.g. the end of a buffer) is instant undefined behavior even if the pointer is never dereferenced

- strict aliasing is on by default for pointers of differing types, but not for void/char/uchar. This means that having `struct sockaddr` and `struct sockaddr_in` pointers pointing to the same struct is UB.

The more I learn, the more I run from C.

[−]teo_zero · 2026-10-11 Sun 07:13 UTC · link
> zero-initialization via `= {0};` will still leave padding and any data not covered by the smallest elements of unions uninitialized

You really should move to C23 and use ={}.

[−]rini17 · 2026-10-10 Sat 18:31 UTC · link
My biggest bewilderment with C is that malloc has to store the buffer size otherwise free could not work...but nobody in decades thought to make this information accessible to the programmer! If you want to keep track of buffer bounds in C, you have to do it artisanally. Despite it's, in most implementations, stored right there next to the data and thus in L1 cache already.
[−]skydhash · 2026-10-10 Sat 22:52 UTC · link
> but nobody in decades thought to make this information accessible to the programmer

Isn’t this implementation details, and an information already available caller side. It would be like returning the filename for a file handle. The more extraneous details in an API, the less flexible it is.

[−]nofriend · 2026-10-10 Sat 23:44 UTC · link
> nobody in decades thought to make this information accessible to the programmer!

Obviously this is untrue. Under GNU we have malloc_usable_size(3). What's true is that it never became standardized, but standards for just about anything in C are very bare, so it's not too surprising.

[−]charleslmunger · 2026-10-11 Sun 04:19 UTC · link
Not nobody! This proposal discusses some of the tradeoffs with exposing the size given a pointer, while proposing a different way to give the true buffer size:

https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n3899.pdf

Many fast allocators do not store the size next to the allocation, and may not store the requested size at all. This has the advantage that freeing a large allocation does not fault in cold pages with a write, as well as reducing allocator memory overhead.

[−]xtajv · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:54 UTC · link
Respectfully, I'm sure that there's some exotic usecase that is motivating the question, but

> nobody in decades thought to make this information accessible to the programmer

> otherwise free could not work

I'm inclined to say that you just answered your own question as to why.

I was always taught that "There are parts of a binary that are there for you, the lucky high-level language programmer. And then there are other parts of the binary which are there for the compiler to clean up after the spoiled little high-level language programmer who doesn't have to write their own assembly :)"

and

"If you want to argue with the compiler, that's what `gcc -S -fverbose-asm` and $YOUR_FAVORITE_TEXT_EDITOR` is for".

But I'm curious if this advice is unrealistic for said exotic usecase.

Do tell?

[−]jan_m_savage · 2026-10-11 Sun 01:10 UTC · link
real programmers don't build identities around languages (i.e. don't call themselves a ___insert__language programmer).
[−]weinzierl · 2026-10-11 Sun 01:25 UTC · link
real musicians don't build identities around instruments (i.e. don't call themselves pianist, violinist or singer).

(I say this as an aspiring C major pianist.)

[−]jan_m_savage · 2026-10-11 Sun 04:33 UTC · link
yes, just look at AR Rahman, arguably imo the most prolific (living) musician in the world, let alone Asia.
[−]zeroq · 2026-10-11 Sun 01:38 UTC · link
in an ideal world real programmers wouldn't be building their whole identities around publishing libraries like "isEven" or claiming fame for vibe porting perfectly fine libraries into whatever is the newest and hottest platform...

... but that ship has already sailed

[−]gruntled-worker · 2026-10-11 Sun 02:10 UTC · link
But... how would the powers-that-be induce language fragmentation, then? /s
[−]delifue · 2026-10-11 Sun 02:50 UTC · link
There is a nuanced mistake in

> If your machine runs out of memory, reversed[i] will cause a segfault upon being accessed. In order to avoid unhelpful segfaults, the program should check for a null pointer and gracefully exit if one is found

If overcommit is enabled (often by default), malloc will not return null when machine runs out of memory. malloc will still return null if input argument is invalid (e.g. too large).

[−]tgv · 2026-10-11 Sun 08:14 UTC · link
Isn't that more of an environmental factor than a language feature? I would expect Rust applications to suffer the same way.
[−]delifue · 2026-10-11 Sun 11:18 UTC · link
Yes, same applies to Rust
[−]pornel · 2026-10-11 Sun 10:23 UTC · link
It's a mistake to assume that Linux with overcommit is the only platform that C runs on.
[−]delifue · 2026-10-11 Sun 11:21 UTC · link
Overcommit is very common now, including desktop, mobile and server, even in contianers. Checking malloc returning null only prevents OOM in places like embedded.
[−]fithisux · 2026-10-11 Sun 05:18 UTC · link
What kills the C experience in my opinion is that articles like that do not specify C standard and compiler extensions.
[−]teo_zero · 2026-10-11 Sun 06:59 UTC · link
If the author is taken aback by '->' vs. '.' and by true and false being 1 and 0, I'm surprised they haven't mentioned digraphs and trigraphs, or the alien <name> syntax for #include!
[−]procaryote · 2026-10-11 Sun 07:23 UTC · link
The only place I've ever seen a trigraph is in malicious c code style content. It's a terrible idea for sure, but not a problem in pratice... to the point that gcc at least used to require an extra flag to turn them on
[−]xtajv · 2026-10-11 Sun 07:46 UTC · link
> As such, there are plenty of "Rust for C Programmers" articles on the internet, but little to no "C for Rust Programmers" articles out there.

[obligatory] The original "C for ... programmers" article that convinced the world to make C as pervasive as it is today is K&R's "The C Programming Language".

I know it's in book form (egad!) and if you download a PDF, it's like 80 pages (double egad!). But it makes for surprisingly light reading.